About This Conversation
Mark Nagle (Treysta’s Executive Director and Head of Advice) talks to Siobhan Komander about her resilience throughout her business and personal life. The path of a small business is paved with speed bumps, obstacles and potholes, and she’s had her fair share of them. We think you’ll be inspired with our she’s overcome them.
Siobhan also shares her ‘Money Moment‘, the realisation that she needed to plan better to ensure her financial, as well as emotional, resilience.
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About Our Expert
Siobhan Komander is a passionate brand, marketing and events professional who loves to build and nurture strategic partnerships execute compelling activations, drive audience engagement and generate significant returns.
She founded Xphyr Brand Experiences almost 18 years ago, with a passion for doing things differently. Siobhan is also a keen half marathon runner with CanToo. In 2022, she’s planning on running 3 half marathons.
Support Siobhan through Can Too: https://www.cantoo.org.au/fundraisers/shuvviekoms/noosa-half-marathon-2022
and get in touch with her:
Transcript of Conversation
00:00:17 Mark Nagle
Welcome everybody. Today we are in conversation with Siobhan Komander. Firstly, thank you so much for graciously giving up some time for today.
00:00:28 Siobhan Komander
An absolute pleasure, Mark.
You and I have known each other for a fair number of years now and I’ve shared trials and tribulation, shall we say, across that time period, we’ve had some highs and some lows, and I’m going to in a moment let you I hope to talk more to that.
Look, we find ourselves today just a week or two after International Women’s Day. We really love to celebrate the female clients that we have at Treysta.
We have influential ladies within our business, ladies that you know are senior within our business and we certainly celebrate that fact and it’s really nice to, I suppose, given the timing to think about financial empowerment for Women, and I think that’s definitely part of your story, Siobhan.
Yes, I agree with that mark.
Now as I said, trials and tribulations. What I would really love to start with for our listeners is for you to, and we were joking prior to coming on air about how on Earth you fit your life story into a sensible timeframe, but if you wouldn’t mind giving it a go, we know the high notes that we would like you to hit in your story. So off you go, do your best.
Thank you Mark.
Well, I guess my story starts from accidentally falling into a career of event management and experiential events way back when I was, uh, whippersnapper, only two years ago, really.
But if I take it a bit further back to when my career started, I accidentally fell into the event game at Apra when I was working with a colleague on the Apra and The Nordoff Robbins Foundation and that really kind of sparked my passion for working on events.
And then I moved to another company where I was given the opportunity at Sony to work on events and be the Event Coordinator and work myself into the ground for not a lot of money.
And not long after that, former colleagues that I had worked with at Apra wanted to start their own business and they thought an event management business was the way to go because I could be the talent, they could keep their jobs in the background while I was on the front line creating the events and working with clients to build the business.
It’s hard graft building an events business.
All the friends that you thought you had in corporate life suddenly don’t know you anymore When you want something from them. So, I was getting a lot of crickets on the end of phone calls.
It was really, really challenging. And after the first year 18 months, both of those business partners realized they couldn’t leave their job for the events agency. So, I brought them out, which wasn’t difficult because we started the business with $3000 and a laptop and then I forged ahead on my own. I was lucky enough to be introduced to the then head of Google, who were at the time three people in Australia, and I was just me.
By the time we’d finished working with them about 15 years later, there was thousands of them in Australia and 25 of us. So, it had been a great opportunity to grow with that business, not without its headaches, that’s for sure. The GFC being one just when I got the business off the ground, got a few people employed. Suddenly there’s no work. Suddenly events are on luxury item.
And even if anyone is doing an event, they cut out the middleman of an Event agency, because they can talk directly to caterers and AV people.
So, I found myself in 1 1/2 days losing $3 million off the books.
It just happened so fast. It was ‘we’re out, we’re out, we’re out’. That was a very challenging time, no doubt about it, it was not long after that that I may have had a life crisis of becoming diabetic.
I had so much stress and so much anxiety that I had started to kill my body and when I went to the doctor to say there’s something not right. I can’t stop drinking cups of tea and water and I’m really dehydrated all the time and she did a blood sugar test and sent me off to hospital. And at that time I said, man, I can’t go to hospital. I’m sorry I’ve just got someone to finish this gonna be me now.
So yeah, look the journey of Xphyr has been an interesting ride, that’s for sure.
Yeah indeed, and I guess it was the beginnings of what I’ve come to realize that you just have this natural resilience. Did that build? Because post Xphyr you had some addition illness, well, first of all you did a bunch of different things. You know, did what you do, and you were, you know, sort of thinking on your feet and looking at alternatives and did a whole raft of things that probably you know in fell in line with your diagnosis so you went and got fit and you did a whole bunch of other things.
There was a building of as I’ve said what I think defines your story is resilient. So, what I saw you through and what challenges then were kind of in the next phase of the post Xphyr world.
Yeah, so I, I mean the consequence of the GFC really led me to meeting you and getting control of my finances because I haven’t, I didn’t have the financial security behind me to deal with the GFC.
So, I had to change my philosophy around money and what it looked like for me right?
And in business. My parents brought me up to have integrity, so even after the GFC, I think I owed people I think was $200,000 that I owe clients. So, I picked up the phone with a colleague and spoke to every single one of those people and put us on a payment plan so that we could manage it so they could understand the situation because they are also in the same situation of having lost a lot of their business.
We could all as small businesses get together and pay, you know, keep the economy, small business economy, going we started. Yeah, and then obviously I also had to deal with the crisis of being diagnosed as a diabetic, I needed to lose 50 kilos, which I have done now. Which is you know it’s taken me that probably a good probably 10 years to do that. I did it the smart way, but I thought it was a slow and steady pace, I wasn’t prepared to give up.
I guess there is some kind of inherent resilience or stupidity. I loved being in events and I needed to also pay people off after the GFC, so I needed to rebuild. So, I just dug deep and eventually things you know started to come back then we was kind of phase two of Xphyr.
Growing back into a multi $1,000,000 business in both here and in Singapore. Also, managing my stress and managing the pressure that I put on myself because ultimately it was all on me to bring in $1,000,000 a month in revenue. To pick the outgoings and incomings operational you know.
I had to at some point make a call that actually the stress was getting to me and it, and health had to be a priority. I guess resilience is just in my DNA.
Yeah, I mean it’s meeting payroll every month and you know, as you said, operating with integrity and the pressure never relents, does it? You know you get through one month and it’s all been good, but the second month starts again and the whole process repeats itself?
And often in event agency land, you are the bank for the clients, so you have to pay your supplies before the Client pays you. So, it really is managing finances, managing the way things happen, and when you’re juggling, you know a number of events every month you still got to pay people and you can’t let that fall off your radar.
Yeah, look, I think that’s you know without doubt the integrity issues. Interesting because I’ve no doubt that that’s part of your driver. Actually, it’s not wanting to let people down and doing the right thing and so on and so forth and really kind of being responsible. And you know, interestingly, sometimes small businesses actually behave better than large businesses. And there’s plenty of stories of very wealthy people that have had multiple business failures and certainly didn’t act with the integrity when it came to paying suppliers that you’ve had.
So, you did so good on you for that. If every everybody maybe acted in the same way things might be different sometimes, but It’s certainly I think it looms large in in your journey.
Yeah, thank you.
So, Xyphr, in the end you kind of put that to bed, probably, would that be more for health and self-preservation at the end of the day Siobhan.
Yeah, yeah, pretty much. I loved it until the day, I didn’t love it. Yeah, and I loved it with a passion and then one day It was just too much for me and I realized that I needed to take some pressure off myself.
So, I started to wind it back and look at a different model rather than having employees look at a contractor model and look at doing things differently. The operational costs of an event business are enormous, and I felt it was very difficult and after the GFC. We would plan conferences and events a year or two out and the timelines got shorter and shorter and shorter.
And it was a lot of pressure to put on myself and the team to maintain that, so about 6-7 years ago I decided to wind it right back, so Xphyr still exists. It’s just more in a consulting form that I work myself on and I’m bringing in consultants and contractors as I need them.
Yeah, fantastic and more manageable I’m guessing. And also, if you do consider the engine that was Xphyr when it was running at full speed, The difficulties of course that the pandemic would have bought a business like that because as we all know events just fell off a Cliff for more than two years.
Yes, there was a moment, Mark. I will not lie when the pandemic started, I thought to myself. Oh, thank God I don’t have 25 people. That was a huge relief.
Yeah look, it’s interesting like so many other things I wonder if the events page, to some extent will be rewritten where we’ve obviously lost a lot of event organizers. Now you know, they run that digital version almost in tandem, so that you can toggle between the two dependent upon conditions.
It’s quite an interesting concept though, because I mean I think the underlying motivation behind events is the human connection. We all sit at desks. We all Are keyboard warrior.
But the connection that you get from an event being out of the office and meeting people and interacting with people is still a large proportion of how business is done, so understandably in the model of online, when we you’re in lockdown and you can’t go out make sense.
But I think people are pretty eager to get back to an in person. Mark, I think the human connection is something we’ve learned coming out of COVID how important it is.
Yeah, I couldn’t agree more and it’s just another illustration of how people will see things a little differently going forward.
You know, again, you know, pre-recording we were talking about your business plan and how you know we all we sort of look at some of the risk events that might come in to derail what we’re doing, but. You know you just can’t see things like the GFC and you can’t see things like the pandemic, but given that we’ve now had these two very significant events within 15 years of Each other I’m wondering whether going forward, you know as people are riding the risk element to their business plans, that some of these things will be given a lot more thought as opposed to just a mere no, it’s never going to happen, but.
Yeah, I think also we if you Look at history between every 10-14 years. There is some kind of economic shakeup that happens. No one can necessarily know what it. Is but I’ve Noticed that there is a pattern over a 10–12-year period that something triggers a big shake up in business.
Yeah, absolutely. That takes us to what at Treysta, we refer to as Money Moments.
They’re vary. They can take many, many forms, but every single person that’s an adult has had a money moment.
You know from the very early ones when we’re 18 and you need to go and you know, insure your first car and you’re thinking how on Earth am I going to get the money together to do this, you know, through various events in life, but usually you know there comes a point where one or two start to dominate the landscape and for you I suppose the difficulty in recovering from the GFC because of building up the level of debt in a business that allows you to financially survive.
An event like that led you to really taking a different view about the why you think about financial control and remaining in a good position.
So, want to talk us a little bit through how that difficult recovery led to your money moment, which is, geez, I’ve just gotta take control here and take a slightly different view of my financial affairs.
Yeah, I think the GFC was such a shock, I’ve been surviving on nothing for a few years, buildings overall and I had just got to the point where OK, I was drawing a decent salary. I was feeling good about the business and where we were headed. What I hadn’t thought about was long term financial planning for myself and my family, and what that looks like.
I had just bought my first apartment to support my mum. She needed somewhere to live. My Mum has not had the best of luck with accommodation over the years. There’s been, you know several financial episodes in my family that have not ended resulted in a great happy ending for her and I was absolutely beside myself that once again she would be find herself without a place to live that was frightening to me.
So, my money moment then was OK, I need to plan for the future better. I need to dig deep and get us out of this hole, which is fine, I will do that and then I need a plan of how I can be better and future proof myself in some ways.
I mean, I don’t think you can necessarily do everything all at once, but you know, if that’s not my skill, need to find people who have the skills. Which is how I ended up finding you that, I needed some help to build my financial wealth to have that security and protection that if I lost my job.
If I needed there was no work at Xphyr then I had resources and something to fall back on to provide myself and my family with some security and safety so beyond just paying debts off was then, what does recovery look like what does the future look like for unknown Events that happen in the future.
And let me tell you thanks to you, and the team, at Treysta, when I had a brain hemorrhage a couple of years ago, I was so grateful that past Siobhan had invested her time and had the wisdom to get someone on board to help me through because I was able to not work for several months and be financially OK.
I think that was ultimately my money moment, realizing that there’s only me to rely on and I have to do that for my own future.
Yeah, it’s a remarkable tale really. You’re going through that period and again, showing those rather incredible levels of resilience where I’m sure many, many others would have given up way more easily and it’s a testament to you that you did not and that you come through and you continue to thrive, which is fantastic to see.
We merely look on from the side and offer support, but you know the greatest effort of course came from within, but I think it’s really fascinating taking a peek into your family and thank you for allowing us to do that today. Because for us, you know, seeing a financially independent strong female that does take responsibility financially. That is really about not putting yourself in the place that your mum found herself. Isn’t it?
It is it. Is in many ways in a different generation, you know?
Yeah, of course.
Now my mum didn’t come great money. She was a secretary, which she loved, but there was no real planning for her. Super wasn’t really a thing until almost the end of her career, and I guess when my mum found herself separated from my dad.
Yeah, that’s right.
She didn’t really have any. And you know, I don’t wanna work till I’m 75 like my dad is. Yeah, bless his heart. I wanna be traveling the world and you know to some degree you have to put yourself 1st and put your future have some clarity around that and then you can help everyone else.
It’s you know it’s the old Airline adage put your own mask on first and then you can help others.
Yeah, look as you know we have a values-based process which we take our clients through, and it really helps us understand their drivers. And reveals other things. I mean, one thing that we often get is a value statement which reads something along the lines of support and protect those that I love.
Now it seems a fairly obvious you know kind of basic human response to anyone that has, you know, close family members, it comes quite naturally to think about protecting and supporting. The problem is that often you gotta have the finances to be able to do that you’ve gotta be, and that’s the difficult part.
I mean, sometimes without the financial wherewithal, you can protect emotionally, sometimes, like you can’t protect financially unless you’ve put yourself in a position.
That enables you to do that, so we are often you know have to help clients understand the financial repercussions of helping a loved one.
You and I have had many conversations around that, and you know it’s, but that’s fine because what we’ve been able, I hope to do with you is to some extent to help you understand the financial repercussions of the help that you provide your lovely mum and that enables you to make good decisions around that, knowing that yourself that you will be comfortable in time and do the things that you want to be able to do as well.
Well, that’s right, and I think it does come back to your point there about the values basis. You know you take the time to understand what my values are, and I can’t have my mother living out on the street, I just can’t do. I don’t want to be that person on 60 minutes.
Yeah, you don’t want to be playing the big bad landlord when mums the tenant, that’s a fact.
No, you know it comes down to also, you know, it’s not about necessarily the zeros on their bank accounts that that make the difference. For me, it’s about making sure that the people I love are looked after.
Yeah, look, there’s no doubt.
I mean, we talk about an emotional return on money as well as a physical one, and that the emotional return can play out in many different ways. But there’s definitely, you know, there’s a wonderfully emotional return that you get from the money that you invest looking after mum.
Absolutely it. And yeah, you know Mastercard have it right. It’s priceless the Peace of Mind that you get.
Yeah, I think that that’s exactly right.
I think sometimes people do underestimate, you know, we all know the emotional return that we get when we help somebody, and it could be of something very basic like helping to get something down from a high shelf in a supermarket for an older person or it can be.
Do that regularly do you Mark?
Ahh, probably not being a 5 foot something or the other, but it’s probably not my strength, but on occasion you know when I come across a particularly short old lady I can step in. But we do you know that you always have a sense. You know, even if it’s helping somebody with directions, it gives you a nice fuzzy feeling for a period of time and you know, we extend that these days.
You know, with helping people invest with a social conscience as well, which is something that we’re doing a lot of work on and it kind of, you know it’s removed from obviously the example with your mum, but it’s the same thing. It’s people being able to invest money in getting an emotional return as well as a physical one, and I think that’s super important and it really is something that I think people once they start to sense that it becomes self-fulfilling and it becomes part of enjoying the journey.
Yeah, good alright, well look we did the whistle stop tour of most of your life but just tell me a little bit more about the your running at the moment and your half marathons and all that sort of stuff so just give us a quick update on where you’re at with that.
Sure. So, in 2019 I thought it would be, and I wanted to lose the last of 10-15kg of those that I was on the path to losing after diabetes, which is no mean feat. when you’ve got diabetic medications, let me tell you.
Yeah, that’s right.
Thank goodness there seem to have been some changes in that in recent years, but I thought it be a good idea to take up running so couch to 5K here I come, and I was out doing one of those with my dog out in the park. And I just I was looking down to see where he was, and I just thought I’d been hitting the back of the head with a baseball bat.
Thought I’d pulled a muscle in my neck and then the next thing I knew I was on the ground, and someone was asking if I was OK and not quite sure how I got there but stood up and then had no feeling in my right leg. It was like there were no bones in my leg.
So, I soldiered on.
Soldier on where?
Went to the cafe and the lady at the café said, ‘oh darl don’t look great.’ Yeah, don’t feel great so drove myself home and then the coffee came right back up immediately, and I had the worst migraine of my life. Unbeknownst to me I had had a brain hemorrhage from an aneurysm that had leaked while I was out jogging. Then from there COVID had just started, so I was also in the no man’s land of getting help because COVID was a thing, nobody knew what covid was back then.
And you know you can’t come into hospital and a whole series of things happen until eventually I had to have emergency brain surgery. And the recovery from that was a lot. That fallout. You know I am so fortunate I am 1% of people who survived a brain hemorrhage without any long-lasting effects.
So once the recovery began, I had just about running 5 kilometres, I thought oh what do I? Do now when I go to 10K. And a friend of mine proposed that we do, Can Too program for 10-kilometer run.
Foolishly thought, sure I can do that, the mental obstacle to overcome that was enormous because the hemorrhage had happened when I was running. So, there was a few hill repeats where there might have been tears bloody death.
But then miraculously, I managed to run 10ks and I thought the enthusiasm got the better of me and thought I’ll do 1/2 marathon.
So I signed up again to do a Can Too program to do a half marathon just over a year ago and two weeks before the half marathon I was informed that I had to have more brain surgery because my aneurysm was reforming. To which I spoke to the surgeon and said after two weeks is fine but I’ve gotta run 1/2 marathon in two weeks please.
And he said fine, no problem but we’ve got to address it in the next month, so then I had to have a more invasive craniotomy surgery for my aneurysm. With the hope that it’s now ended, and this is the end of the aneurysm story.
And I’ve been talking about my aneurysm for so long now I can’t remember why you asked me about my running, didn’t you?
Yeah, I did. I did yeah, but I think that it’s a lovely, all bit obviously the incredibly challenging time for you personally. But geez, it’s a really potted version of who you are. You know you go into you get fit, you get yourself up to five ks. This dreadful event occurs and your response to that post that event is to try and run 10 and then to culminate in 1/2 marathon. So, if anything Siobhan sums you up as a person, I reckon that’s probably as good a job as anyone can do.
I am now in training for this Sydney Morning Herald half Marathon again after last year’s brain surgery.
Good on you and. All power to you. I’m sure you’ll successfully complete and no doubt improve your time.
Yeah, look, I’m just happy to finish someone said to me is a marathon in the future and I thought 06 hours of running, ’cause I’m really slow. I don’t think so. I’m happy with a really slow but finishing 21 ks Thanks very much.
Yeah, well look good on you and good luck with the training and that obviously ultimately the marathon. So, look normally one of the questions that I have is to ask people what their biggest challenge has been over the last two years I think we can safely move on from that question and on the basis that we’ve almost certainly just answered it.
It is interesting because I’m sure that these you know often when you talk to people that have had a life changing event like this they do use. They do talk a lot about the word resilience and that that’s what gets you back. You know, it’s interesting that people that haven’t had to go through such significant events never ever would be able to see themselves rising to the challenge in the way that you have.
But I guess one message of all might be that people can indeed work through some of those difficult periods of time and come back.
I think so, I’m not saying it’s an easy journey at all, but life has its ups and downs and its peaks and troughs. And you know, I guess a little bit of life experience helps you know ‘OK, I know that I’ve been here before and I can Get back to Where I was or, you know, I think it’s About adapting and realizing that actually, we have absolutely no control. So just roll with the punches as best can.
I, I think that’s sage advice, indeed talking of advice. What do you think is the best piece of advice you’ve had over the years from a business perspective?
I think there’s two, two in equal measure. The first one is, if you can, get someone to do the things that you can’t, who’s better at them than you are.
So, the first thing I did the first time I could employ someone, or, you know, get a contractor in it was to do my finances. That is not my strength, I’m a creative, and so from the get-go I had someone come in and helped me with the books and with the business.
I think that we all have expertise in a field, play to your strength at all times, if you can, and the 2nd is don’t employ friends and family took me a while to learn that lesson, not gonna lie.
Employee a few too many friends, worked with family for a bit too long. But it comes around to preserving it relationships because in Friendships and family is different to work and business, and as a leader of as someone who runs the business It’s all on you and You have standards and that can sometimes be in conflict with employees and what their expectations are.
Yeah, I don’t employ friends and family anymore.
Yeah, very good pieces of advice, which I guess ultimately when you look back, you’re pretty pleased that you took the advice and that you’ve essentially stuck to those rules ever since.
What would you describe as one of the best decisions that you’ve ever made anything spring to mind?
The best decisions I’ve ever made got Could be life.
Could be financial, could be a.
I would say I would honestly say stepping into starting Xphyr. I naively thought after my first year in business, but during that first year, I thought I can’t wait for this a year to be down the track, ’cause I’ll know how to run a business then.
Ah, the life that it has brought me through challenges from good, the bad and the ugly is, I think, a really unique experience that not everyone has and that has really allowed me to discover who I am and my drivers in life and my purpose.
I think that’s been an important discovery too. Since life changing brain hemorrhage is having a purpose and driving yourself forward. So yeah, I definitely I would say starting Xphyr that was.
Yeah, it’s interesting, isn’t it? I often would describe successors in whatever shape or form it comes, but actually in essence being the best version of yourself and not leaving anything on the table in terms of your intellect, or you know, emotional capacity, whatever it might be, to be challenged in a way that’s enabled you to really demonstrate your talent and to use that as far as your talent extends. And I guess without Xphyr or prior to Xphyr, that would have been less easy for you too have done I, I’m guessing and Xphyr gave you the opportunity to really test yourself, didn’t it?
Yeah, absolutely. I remember one of my first manager said to me you’ll never be a manager. And that in itself was inspiring and made me challenge myself to be a leader when Xphyr started to grow. And at some point, I wasn’t a great leader, I realized that I had 12 people employed and nobody knew where we were going, and someone had said you need to steer the ship. So, oh yeah, of course I do. I would kind of just been on a treadmill and so then investing back in myself I was able to do that through Xphyr by investing in myself, helping the business grow as well. Those aren’t things that I think I would have had the same opportunities to do if I’ve been employed by A company.
Yeah, I think that’s I’m guessing that when you think about the things that the best decisions that you’ve ever made, putting yourself in that position and living that journey was something that you will always, I guess be grateful for It even though I definitely remember the stress and strains of the times.
Yeah yes yes. I know there, we’ve laughed. We’ve also cried.
Yeah indeed, there have been some tears. But look how Siobhan again. In summary, looking well, thank you for your time today and being so candid and sharing your story so honestly because it’s a very personal journey. Of course, for you look, I think it’s you know I.
Absolutely thank you.
I really do think you stand as a testament for female financial empowerment. You know your family really is a very good example of how you know if you step up and you take responsibility. You can use that responsibility and some of that success to help other members of your family, you know it doesn’t really matter what gender you are. I think that’s a very, very important story that comes out of your financial position so long may that continue.
Also Mark just on that note, I hadn’t realized until I had my brain hemorrhage. You can’t take it with you. Some point building all that wealth and building that you can’t share it. With people, it’s really not going with me.
Yeah, that’s good point. Yeah, look, thank you. Thank you for making that point again. You know it’s something it’s very difficult sometimes when people have spent a life of acquiring assets because that’s what they’re trying to do. In many ways.
You know when that that balance tilts and you’re in the spending phase, we have to work very hard with our clients to create spending empowerment, which is a whole other conversation.
That’s something that you do well. Mark, let me compliment you and the team on that because you do work with us on changes and life is a rollercoaster. And some years we’ve met, it’s been a, you know, desperate, dire, horrible situation in my personal life. And other times, it’s been incredibly successful, and we’ve been able to roll with. So, it’s times like that, it’s important to live with money and financial security not to just squirrel it away. It’s important to get the most out of your life.
Yeah, it really is. And as you said, it’s a bit counter generational at the moment. But as I’ve said, the fact that you get to see your mum with a stable home and all of those things that is the benefit and helped your wellbeing I’m sure on a on a daily basis.
And yeah, so you’re right. You know it’s very important how we spend our money is probably in many ways more important than the accumulation phase. It’s all about, you know, trying to live your best life and make great decisions and be prudent, but at the same time make sure that you’re not missing out, because as you very well know that sometimes something can happen and you know many people in your situation would not have made it through with the.
No, I’m sure I’m sure not, and I’m sure others would have it just, partly how what your DNA is, where your values in life lie and if you surrounded by the right people to guide you.
And you know, I’m lucky to have guys on board.
Yeah indeed, and look. Thank you for being, you know I always I’m very grateful that we have such lovely and fascinating, interesting clients. And you’ve been very gracious today. So, thank you again.
And we will no doubt chat soon and maybe on this side or the other side of the half marathon. But either way, I’m intrigued to see how you get on. So, we’ll wrap up there. So, thank you so much Siobhan.
Thanks, Mark has been absolute pleasure chatting.